I have asked several of my reappraising brothers and sisters to justify changing the moral teaching on this and to use biblical and traditional support. So far, none have done this. Can you show me a biblical example of God blessing homosexual sex? Can you show in tradition where it was called blessed?
It is not the orientation that is a bar to ordination, it is calling "sin" "not sin." It is saying that God blesses homosexual sex when Scripture is unequivocally against homosexual sex and calls it "sin" every time it is addressed.
Please help me understand your moral thinking on this. From where I sit, it seems to be "There are several people who naturally are attracted to members of the same sex, so God must have created them that way and homosexual sex (in the right contexts) is good and blessed.
Mother Kaeton (and the title is meant respectfully, not sarcastically. She is a priest and that office deserves resepct) seemed to take offense at my post and claimed that I was ignorant of the issues or the arguments. At first, she replies pointing me to several documents I have already read. She claims she is too tired of defending her position. She points me to Integrity and to Claiming the Blessing. She then claimed ignorance of the terms "reappraiser" and "reasserter." She wrote to me in a comment: "I only know that I am called a "reappraiser" when I refuse to accept what someone else defines as "orthodoxy," or their image of God and their image of Jesus.I think there is a word for that, Phil. It's called idolotry."
I took that to mean she thinks I am guilty or close to idolatry. I actually believe that I should accept the Church's definition of "orthodoxy" and not my own. That is part of what being a catholic Christian is about - submitting our own beliefs and our own wills to the Will of God and to the teachings of the Church.
I again asked her for her reasoning. I am really curious about this. She mentioned that she is "a Christian who considers herself conservative on ecclesiology and progressive on issues of social justice." I remarked:
How you can claim to be "conservative on ecclesiology" while ignoring the
unified and historical condemnation of homosexual acts by the universal Church
is beyond me. I have read the documents you mentions (well, most of them) and
their arguments underwhelm me. They sound like so much of the rationalization
that I do for my own sins. I am not ignorant of the arguments. I wanted your
reasoning on the issue - how you came to your decision in the face of
scriptural, traditional evidence to the contrary as well as the unifed voice of
the Anglican "Instruments of Unity" asking us not to proceed with consecrating
Yes, the Church has spent much time discussing this topic and
everytime (until either 2000 or 2003, depending on how you read certain
resolutions), a decision was reached, that decision stated that homosexual sex
was not blessed and that the Church should not bless same sex unions nor ordain
those living in a same sex sexual relationship. A person with "conservative
ecclesiology" would look at that and agree that the Church teaching is what it
is and then strive to follow it. A person of conscience would, if he or she
could not teach what the Church teaches, resign any position of leadership that
requires teaching what the Church teaches.
You did not do that.
She then went into a tirade
And now, here, for you, 'his majesty," I'm to give my own "reasoning on the
issue - how you came to your decision in the face of scriptural, traditional
evidence to the contrary as well as the unifed voice of the Anglican
"Instruments of Unity" asking us not to proceed with consecrating +Robinson."Umm
. . . do you think I have nothing else to do with my time but to respond
personally to you?Especially when you and I know that NOTHING I say will
persuade you?Please, don't even try to convince me that you are intentional
about a serious conversation. You, like David Anderson, stay in the Episcopal
Church because “you like a good fight.”Sorry, I love Jesus way more than that.
I’ve got too much He wants me to do to get into a word fight or a useless
exercise in scriptural gymnastics for that foolishness.If and when you are
serious about a conversation, I have already told you what to do: Call my
office. Get my number. We'll talk – I’ll even try to arrange a face to face
meeting – like the Christians we say we are.Otherwise, go lurk about T19 or
Drell’s Descants where you can be with people who think and act and pray as you
do and all will be well with your world.
I responded to her comment to the effect that she had showed me the back of her cyber hand and I would not comment on her site any more.
In the midst of all this, Greg Griffith spotted the her post and my comments and wrote a post about it on Standing Firm.
Well, Mother Kaeton went ballistic when she found out that Standing Firm had commented on this:
Okay, boys and girls, here's the deal. Someone tipped me off to a little service
which helps me track the number of visitors I get to this site.What I didn't
realize is that it also helps me track where the visitors are from as well as
the origin of their post. Turns out that "Your Brother in Christ Phil" is only a
brother in Christ by baptism, by certainly not by spirit - which is pretty mean,
low down and nasty. He is a Deacon in Plano, Tx who has a website called STAND
FIRM. Turns out, he has been baiting me, which I knew all along and why I would
not answer him directly, so that he can reprint my comments and let others, like
Marty here, have an absolute "bottom feeders" banquet.Bottom feeders, of course,
are those fish in the tank that survive - indeed, thrive - on all the "garbage"
(ahem) cast off by all the other fish in the tank.It's amazing. Honestly.Put on
your asbestos pumps and venture forth into the LaLa Land of the Neo-Orthodox and
'see how these Christians love one another.' Not! http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/945/
Did I mention that neither Marty nor Phil took me up on my offer to have an authentic conversation? You know, like REAL Christians?Needless to say, we won't be hearing from brother Phil or brother Marty again - not in this space, anyway.
I am not part of the people who run Standing Firm. I only comment on there. I don't consider myself to be a "bottom feeder" and I was not baiting her. I was looking for a serious conversation - one in the open where all could see our responses. I have had several of these in the past and have always been edified by them. I have changed my opinions on things because of conversations I've had. I will take up the challenge to email her and see if I can start the conversation again. However, I doubt it will be possible. I am now, according to her "mean, low down and nasty." I challenge here to show any post or comment of mine that is "mean, low down and nasty."
Mother Kaeton, if you read this, know that I did not intend to offend, but to learn. I don't want to hurt, but to heal (myself included). It is important to me that I have the right (e.g. God's) take on this. I am not saying that my take is God's, but that I want to know and understand and hold God's take on this and all issues.